Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.messianic,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Atheism: The Godlessness that Failed Summary: Expires: References: <42BA0D7D.8BA17CE5@worldnet.att.net> <1119496406.318315.48560@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42BA461A.818595CF@worldnet.att.net> Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ Keywords: In article <42BA461A.818595CF@worldnet.att.net> Roy Jose Lorr writes: > > > Terry Cross wrote: > > > Roy Jose Lorr wrote: > > > Terry Cross wrote: > > > > > > > Cary Kittrell wrote: > > > > > In article <42B9F143.9EDA2F9F@worldnet.att.net> Roy Jose Lorr writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Cary Kittrell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article <42B9E495.33D28343@worldnet.att.net> Roy Jose Lorr writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cary Kittrell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article <42B9DA36.FAC55F56@worldnet.att.net> Roy Jose Lorr writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cary Kittrell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I must say. What is this absolute proof of the existence > > > > > > > > > > > of the God of Moses, and how does it differ from those offered for > > > > > > > > > > > other gods? The Christian God, say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolute Morality existing in an amoral world , > > > > > > > > > > a world which > > > > > > > > > > makes no provision for it. Since devising absolutes is beyond > > > > > > > > > > human capabillitiy, Absolute Morality could have been placed > > > > > > > > > > here only by a transendental power. Most call that power God. > > > > > > > > > > Absolute Morallity exists in this world in complete form in one > > > > > > > > > > place only: the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean that thing with the forbidden lobsters and the immoral mixed > > > > > > > > > fabrics and the obligatory killing of mouthy children and the mandated > > > > > > > > > slaughter of all conquered citizenry (virgins excepted) and the drowning of > > > > > > > > > the innocent animals and the holy invasion-landgrabs and the > > > > > > > > > untrimmable beards and curse laid all childbearers til the > > > > > > > > > end of time? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THAT Absolute Morality? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may be right. Perhaps no human could come up with such > > > > > > > > > a moral document after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hysteria is good. > > > > > > > > > > > > But denial is bad. Please tell me what parts of Absolute Morality > > > > > > > > > > > > > > forbidden lobsters and the immoral mixed > > > > > > > fabrics and the obligatory killing of mouthy children and the mandated > > > > > > > slaughter of all conquered citizenry (virgins excepted) and the drowning of > > > > > > > the innocent animals and the holy invasion-landgrabs and the > > > > > > > untrimmable beards and curse laid all childbearers til the > > > > > > > end of time? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we find in the above? Or do you deny the above are to be found in your > > > > > > > five Books? > > > > > > > > > > > I deny your antagonistic interpretation. > > > > > > > > > > Oh? The Hebrews did not invade and steal land from its contemporary inhabitants? > > > > > They were not rebuked for failing to kill every last inhabitant in certain cases? > > > > > All women were not cursed to painful childbirth due to Adam and Eve's actions? > > > > > It was not declared immoral to eat certain foods, wear certain fabrics, even > > > > > to trim one's beard? > > > > > > > > > > You reject my contention that these things, and more, are to be found in your Five Books > > > > > of Absolute Morality? Or you reject the my implication that maybe these things > > > > > are not so Absolutely Moral after all? Which? > > > > > > > > You have not mentioned divinely sanctioned hereditary slavery - slave > > > > mother and father, slave children, for all following generations: > > > > > > > > Leviticus 25 > > > > 44 Both thy bondmen and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall > > > > be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy > > > > bondmen and bondmaids. > > > > 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among > > > > you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, > > > > which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. > > > > 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after > > > > you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for > > > > ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule > > > > one over another with rigour. > > > > > > > > That is pretty harsh for the paradigm of moral documents. > > > > > > In the course of human events slavery is a given. > > > > In the course of human events, murder, adultery, homosexuality, > > bestiality, theft, and lying are also "givens." But those I mention > > > are forbidden, while slavery is recommended by Jehovah. > > All the above save slavery are singular personal acts regardless > of culture and are dealt with on an individual basis. Slavery on > the other hand is practiced as a universal communal rite and > doesn't respond to punishment of individuals as all are guilty at > once. The only moral approach is to mitigate the slaves plight. > This Moses' God did. Any other solution is impossible. This didn't seem to deter God from forbidding trimming of the beard, even though this practice is nigh universal; very few men in any given culture look like ZZ Top. He seemed to figure He could get away with a universal edict on this topic. {...} > > > > I am sorry, Roy, but your statement above leads me to ask whether you > > consider that Americans are living UNnaturally in the absence of > > slavery. What consequence to you consider Europe has suffered over the > > last thousand years for their refusal to indulge in the "natural" > > institution of human bondage? > > Neither America, nor Europe, nor the rest of the world free of slavery. To persist with Terry's question, are the 99% of Americans who are neither sweat shop owners or brothel keepers behaving unnaturally? I own no slaves. I will even gues that you do not either.